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Sometimes in the middle of a big project, I'll start working on a small side-project just to clear my mind a little bit. The augmented actually started that way as well, believe it or not, until it spiraled off into a project even bigger than the one I was taking a break from!
I was doing a lot of research into Rome for reasons I won't get into just yet, and a friend of mine expressed interest in seeing a Centurion realized in 5e. The more I researched, the more I realized how possible a Centurion fighter was, and so I took a break and decided to give it a go.
Turns out, the idea had legs. And now we've got a full-fledged Centurion fighter, ready for a test drive!
FEATURES:
- Three different postures to hold your Tower Shield, depending on what you think the enemy will throw at you next!
- A wealth of options that build on core fighter mechanics, creating great synergy with the base class.
- The ability to be the tankiest tank of them all, just don't expect to move very quickly.
CONCERNS:
- Maybe too tanky? It's powerful within that one focus, but it doesn't have a whole lot of latitude outside of it.
WHAT I LEARNED:
- Sometimes, ideas happen really quickly, and it's good to be prepared when they do!
You know, if you took out some of the words without changing the mechanics and allowed the use of either a short sword & shield or spear & shield this would double as a Hoplite homebrew (in fact Retaliation seems to have a vestige of this as it includes spears), it also smacks of the good old Dwarven Defender in places. Still, this was exciting to read and now my next fighter is going to be either a Dragoon or a Centurion/Hoplite. Who knows now, quality work though.
ReplyDeleteSo going through each ability:
- I'd want to see Spears feature in this build, personal quirk though; take it with a moba community worth of salt.
- I'm surprised the fact that Half and 3/4ths cover grant a bonus to dexterity saving throws doesn't feature in the tower shield ability (Shield Wall and Turtle explicitly call out attacks), no real commentary or criticism on this feature apart from that. I quite like it.
- The trigger conditions for inspirational defender seem a little weird considering they don't consume a reaction. Perhaps, given the -requirement- of taking the Protection FS, you could tie it to that instead e.g. 'When you use the protection fighting style feature to impose disadvantage on an attack, the target of the attack regains hit points equal to your fighter level'. Still no inherent reaction cost, but it means you're not doing several things on -not your turn-. Additionally, the brace rider is cool but seems out of place being tacked on here; also it calls out spells specifically and not just -effects- that are save-for-half (see Shield Master wording for something analogous).
- I'd give the first line of Retaliation and Invictus another language pass though, it's really janky. Retaliation seems to have more than the usual amount of gates to trigger compared to some (particularly compared to sentinel), not sure there's anything wrong with that; just thought it bears mentioning.
- I have a small issue with invictus (at least in my reading of it), in that it essentially is your fighting style without reaction cost once per round, thought the wording takes a long walk to get to get to that point. Which I guess is fine if a little plain, it's probably the least exciting thing in mix for me.
Now that's a lot of 'criticism' from a guy without any real suggestions, but I really can't state how interesting it is to see these ideas on paper. Wouldn't have written a response like this if I wasn't thrilled.
I do have a couple of ideas to do what you could chop, change, use or ignore; I was working on a Valkyrie/Shield Maiden style Barbarian a little while back that shared some parallels with this.
'When a creature you can see targets an ally with an attack, you may as a reaction move up to half your speed towards the attacker without provoking opportunity attacks. If you end this movement within 5ft of the attacker you may impose disadvantage on the attack or force it to target you instead.'
'When you rush an enemy using your 3rd level Valkyrie feature you may choose to move your full movement speed toward the creature instead of half, if you choose to do this and end your movement within 5 feet of the enemy you may smash into it as part of the reaction. The creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier), on a failed save the target is incapacitated and its movement speed is reduced to 0 until the end of the current turn.'
That's all I've got, keep up the good work man. Ciao.
>Hoplite
DeleteYou know, I might add a sidebar about how to modify this into a hoplite. That's apparently a really popular option, and I'd love to give people a way to play it too.
>cover and saving throws
That's definitely by design. If saving throws were included, Brace wouldn't really be an option. I wanted characters to think tactically about what the enemy will throw at them next, AND I wanted actual, real-world cover to still have its uses.
>Inspirational Defender and Protection
Good point. I intended ID to work off of Protection without requiring it, but ID is probably good enough that it could just modify Protection directly without any loss of viability.
>Retaliation and Invictus
Makes sense, definitely could use a language pass. I remember looking at Retaliation in particular for a long time before shrugging and figuring "eh, it makes *enough* sense, I guess."
>Invictus and Protection
I should probably just make Invictus function off of Protection too, now that I think about it. Like, if you use Protection and the enemy creature still manages to hit ANYway, you can make them reroll the attack without disadvantage.
It'd be a bit of a nerf, but it'd be more straightforward and make more sense.
>Valkyrie
I really love that as a barbarian option!
Personally, I think it sounds more mobile than this option. The centurion is supposed to be a slow-moving, armored tank most of the time, and the movement abilities here are mostly about restoring the full use of your movement speed rather than granting anything additional.
Thanks for the in-depth reading though! Criticism, even without solutions, always helps!
What a delightful brew! As it stands I would allow this on my table since everything appears to be in order balance wise. Excellent work!
ReplyDeleteThe adjacent ally restriction lends to the feel and flavor very well. While I'm good with the added damage to the shortsword, I feel like the shortsword and spear restriction on retaliation is pointless and would be altered at my table to simply permitting a melee weapon attack. The existing theme and shortsword buff already makes those two weapons the most likely choices, and preventing similar concepts in the name of Rome feels counter to inspiring creative interpretations. I don't love that it is a partial feat, but such things have precedence to an extent, so although it could stand a change it's not a necessary one.
I do agree with the above comment by Marc Darville that Inspirational Defender could easily be tied into using the Protection fighting style to give an actual reason for the restriction of the fighting style at the beginning.
Those are minor comments that are worth mentioning but would not prevent me from using this archetype. I applaud this flavorful brew. Thank you for putting it together and sharing it!!
>I feel like the shortsword and spear restriction on retaliation is pointless and would be altered at my table to simply permitting a melee weapon attack
DeleteI might dial it back to that. I was really trying to build in flavor, but I feel like the way I approached that might build OUT flavor instead.
>Inspirational Defender
My intent here was to have it operate off of the Protection fighting style without necessarily making it HAVE to do so, but I see your point. Adding more ability synergy (especially when the ability is required) makes sense.
>Thank you for putting it together and sharing it!!
My pleasure! I'm just happy it's been so well-received. =D
Well, I know what my next character is going to be! Unfortunately, it'll take me a bit to get to the archetype. (I hate starting at level one...)
ReplyDeleteThe painful, horrible slog through the first few levels is what makes that amazing 3rd level worth it. ;)
DeleteThink I'll be looking at posts on here a lot more often now, since UA has been taken over by a new rather dictatorial moderator and I don't feel comfortable posting on stuff in there any more.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this is absolutely awesome. The Centurion Training benefit is a brilliant way to allow the flavour of a gladius with the mechanical strength of the rapier. Mechanically something that would be entirely possible anyway, but with the bonus flavour. Brilliant subtle touch. The marching bit is interesting, but I wonder if it shouldn't perhaps be more about how *long* you can march in a given day without growing tired, and/or be restricted to roads. Not for mechanical or balance reasons, but just for flavour.
Is Brace intended to be the first Strength or Dex saving throw, decided at the time you receive one of them, or you choose which you are protected against when using the ability? If the former, personally I think it would be a little clearer if you were to say "You gain advantage on the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw". If the latter, I wonder why?
I'd remove the "it modified" from Inspiration Defender. It's kinda redundant, and makes the sentence a little difficult to parse.
Valiant Charge seems like an exceptionally weak ability. Most combats don't see large amounts of movement on a turn-by-turn basis, and those that do are rare enough that the combination of movement and use of the highly limited Action Surge feature are likely to be rare.
I think Invictus is a fantastic feature, but would benefit greatly from some more flavour text surrounding it. How exactly does it manifest?
Overall, I do worry a little bit that all of the abilities this gets, except for the flavourful march one at third level, are combat-focused. Most fighter archetypes gain at least one ability (usually at 7th level) that's largely social or exploration in focus. However, that's not a huge concern in a fighter subclass the way it might be in a warlock or some other classes' subclasses, and I think this is an exceptionally well-made archetype you've got here!
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