It's back by popular demand, and refitted with new features!
I actually revisited this one specifically because several people asked me to over Twitter (@WalrockHomebrew). I've been meaning to do so for a little while, but I had a lot on my plate to sort through until I saw that the demand was there.
Fighter Martial Archetypes are something I've always had a bit of trouble with. There's little uniformity in terms of features, and it's hard to draw a meaningful, consistent power level from the provided spread.
So, I experiment. Over and over and over again. And eventually, maybe, I get it perfectly right.
This might not be one of those times; I did add a whole lot of moving parts here, after all.
You know the drill by now. Find all the broken bits, and I'll fix 'em up.
(special thanks to @DrMoradin for helping me suss out what to do with this one, and providing invaluable playtest feedback!)
CHANGELOG:
- Aspirant Step has been reworked into three different abilities, loosely modeled on the Battle-Master's superiority dice!
- Wing Clip your enemies to bring those pesky fliers down to your level.
- Dodge that dragon's breath with Avoidance, and even ignore that half-damage-on-a-miss that lingers around.
- Replaced Ascendant Strike with Always Ready, adding some much-needed flavor and rolling its benefits into making Aspirant Step initially more enticing.
- Needle of Heaven no longer shoots you 400 feet in the air, which got pretty wacky. Instead, you can wombo-combo an Aspirant Step and Wing Clip with it.
CONCERNS:
- Some of the phrasing is pretty convoluted, and I'm betting there's a more elegant way to put a lot of what I wrote.
- I added the balance math of the "Improved Combat Superiority" feature to the core Dragonslaying feature, but still have features at the levels ICS functions at. However, this archetype doesn't have the additional maneuvers (for a total of 9 instead of this archetype's 3) that are normally granted to a Battle-Master, so I'm hoping that evens out.
WHAT I LEARNED:
- I always try to have my ear to the ground and do stuff people will enjoy. Turns out, Twitter is great for that.
Your friendly neighborhood Vileo here to help you with some syntax and formatting.
ReplyDelete> Bonus Proficiencies
Keying off of the Knowledge Cleric's Blessings of Knowledge, I suggest the following syntax instead:
"When you first take this option at 3rd level, you can speak, read, and write Draconic. If you already know this language, you instead learn one language of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of one of the following skills: Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Athletics, History, or Perception."
> Dragonslaying
I think, first of all, perhaps the uses of Dragonslaying should be reworded to Dragonslaying Points. Features that typically use "uses" have a singular, but perhaps flexible, intents. In all other cases, you have Superiority Dice (as you mentioned the ability was worked off of), Ki Points, Sorcery Points, etc., which may contribute to some of the wording you expressed concern with. I'll continue forward assuming that this change gets made, as the wording is easily enough reworked back for uses, if that's your desire. I might also suggest that Aspirant Step become a bonus action, for the sake of it essentially emulating (and not stacking with) a bonus action Dash, or you know, using Aspirant Step multiple times a turn, because there's currently no limiter on that. This is keying off of ki points, sorcery points, and a little bit of cantrip syntax.
"Also at 3rd level, you have learned a set of abilities that allow you to fight dragons on near-even footing. Your training and ability to use Dragonslaying Techniques is represented by dragonslaying points. You have four dragonslaying points and gain an additional point when you reach 7th level and 15th level. You regain all spent dragonslaying points when you finish a short or long rest.
Aspirant Step. On your turn, you can spend a dragonslaying point to make a long jump or high jump as a bonus action. When you do so, you add 5 feet to the maximum distance of your long jump and 10 feet to the maximum distance of your high jump. This jump doesn't require a running start and doesn't use any of your available movement, allowing you to move further than your normal movement would allow. Additionally, when you jump in this way, that movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity (though the rest of your movement will).
If your jump was at least 10 feet long or high, you gain advantage on the first attack roll during or immediately after landing (before using any other movement) as long as that attack is made with a glaive, halberd, javelin, lance, pike, spear, or trident.
The length of your long jump increases by an additional 5 feet and the height of your high jump increases by an additional 10 feet when you reach 10th level (10' and 20', respectively) and again at 18th level (15' and 30', respectively).
Avoidance. When you make a Dexterity saving throw against a damaging spell or effect, you may use your reaction to spend one dragonslaying point and gain advantage on the roll. You must choose to do so before the roll. If you succeed on the saving throw and the effect would deal half damage on a success, you instead take no damage.
Wing Clip. When you hit a creature with an attack, you can choose to spend one dragonslaying point. If you do, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage. If the creature has a flying speed, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + either your Strength of Dexterity modifier) or lose the ability to fly until the end of your next turn. If the creature is flying, it immediately begins falling. The damage from this ability increases to 1d10 at 10th level and 1d12 and 18th level."
I found the message cap! It's 4,096 for those wondering.
Delete> Always Ready
Firstly, I'd remove the first paragraph's indent, as it seems that was an erroneous inclusion. Secondly, with the new points, I suggest the following syntax:
"At 7th level, you've grown used to surprise attacks from larger creatures, and are on guard against any potential assault. When you roll initiative, if you can see a Large or larger creature that appears hostile, you gain advantage on that initiative roll and regain one spent dragonslaying point.
Additionally, you gain resistance to any damage you would recieve from falling."
Alternatively, this could say, "you gain resistance to any bludgeoning damage you would receive from falling," and function essentially the same, unless there's a peculiar case in which said adventurer is carrying 50 flasks of acid, falls, and they all break, also causing piercing and acid damage from the fall. Your call on how you'd like it to work, but the original wording would also halve the piercing and acid damage.
> Strident Surge
Keying off of Eldritch Knight Fighter's Arcane Charge, I'll suggest the following syntax:
"Beginning at 15th level, you may use your Aspirant Step without expending a dragonslaying point when you use your Action Surge. You can use your Aspirant Step before or after the additional action."
> Needle of Heaven
There were a few things with this one, but mainly just syntax and adapting it to the points.
"At 18th level, you are able to undertake a powerful attack that transforms your weapon into a lance of pure radiant light. As an action, you may make one attack with a glaive, halberd, javelin, lance, pike, spear, or trident that you're holding. This may be a melee attack or a ranged attack, treating the weapon as though it had the thrown property with a normal range of 400 feet and no long range. Instead of the weapons normal damage, it deals 10d12 + your Strength modifier radiant damage on a hit, after which it magically returns to your hand.
You can spend one dragonslaying point before you make the attack roll. If you do, you may use your Aspirant Step without spending a dragonslaying point, granting advantage on this attack roll. Additionally, if you chose to spend a dragonslaying point, you may also subject the target to your Wing Clip without spending a dragonslaying point.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest."
Don't forget to remove the quotation marks if you use this, and let me know if you're curious why one ability is worded a certain way or another. Thanks for your current and continued work on these homebrew options!
>Bonus Proficiencies
DeleteI like yours much, much better. Consider it stolen. <3
>Dragonslaying
I disagree with using the term "points," because points typically come into play as a mechanic when there exists the possibility of using multiples on a single ability, i.e. "Use 3 ki points to super-punch someone" or "use 2 sorcery points to turn your spells purple."
Might still need better nomenclature than "uses," though, but the jury's still out on that.
>Aspirant Step as a bonus action
Yes, that's a solid idea. You shouldn't be able to pogo-stick through all your uses of Dragonslaying in one round.
>Dragonslaying syntax
5e doesn't really use ' for feet (i.e. 10' = 10 feet). If anything, ft. is used for feet, but that's only in the context of charts and areas where space is at a premium.
Aside from that (and the aforementioned points thing), I like the clarity of your phrasing much better.
>Always Ready
DeleteNice catch on the indent, those sneak up on me.
I'd avoid "appears hostile," though, as that allows players to make arguments like "that ettin drinking at the bar totally looked like he was going to attack me, he appears hostile!" If it just says "hostile," it's more firmly in the hands of the DM.
It's... a somewhat fair point about the acid vials. I should just switch it around, and put "falling damage" instead of "damage from falling." More clear that way.
>Strident Surge
That's a good point of clarity with the before/after the extra action bit. Should definitely include it.
>Needle of Heaven
This is definitely where I was looking for the most syntax help overall.
I like the first half of what you've got here, as it solves one minor problem I had with phrasing the weapon returning. Less so for the second half, which ends up feeling redundant for the sake of clarity.
I need to add language that conveys explicitly the one Dragonslaying "point" is buying both Aspirant Step and Wing Clip for sure, though. That could use some focus.
Thanks again for your detailed analysis, and the conversation earlier! Really enjoyed getting to chat about homebrew, the industry, and all that jazz.
> I disagree with using the term "points,"...
DeleteI can understand that. Though, I will point out that there is precedent for it in the Luck feat. Perhaps renaming slightly and using a similar syntax style to Cleric's Channel Divinity? It doesn't use "expend a use of your Channel Divinity," It just says "use your Channel Divinity."
> You shouldn't be able to pogo-stick...
Also notably, I made Avoidance a reaction, though I didn't mention it in the message. Similar to Uncanny Dodge.
> 5e doesn't really use ' for feet.
You're right, I was getting a little ahead of myself there.
> I'd avoid "appears hostile," though...
I can agree with that, I definitely acknowledge that I have some friends that might also try that (I'd certainly joke about it).
> Less so for the second half...
This is where I was rushing, as I had things to do as well, lol. I agree on that part. Perhaps "you gain the benefit of both your Aspirant Step and Wing Clip," or something along those lines, then going on to describe more in detail exactly how both effects affect the action.
> Thanks again for your detailed analysis, and the conversation earlier!
Certainly! I enjoy helping out, and always enjoy chatting.
>It doesn't use "expend a use of your Channel Divinity," It just says "use your Channel Divinity."
DeleteWell, with Paladins they only get one CD per SR/LR, so if they use their Channel Divinity, they're specifically using the one charge that they get.
I might go for points after all, considering the Lucky feat and the lack of an alternative. Luck points is enough of a precedent for me to use it.
>I made Avoidance a reaction
Ack, that's a straight up error in editing. It originally was a reaction, but I guess that got eaten up when I was modifying other parts of the text.
>gain the benefit of both your Aspirant Step and Wing Clip
The problem with doing it in that (admittedly much simpler) way is that both those abilities function at different stages of an attack.
Aspirant Step functions before the attack to set up advantage, while Wing Clip functions after an attack hits, dealing more damage and doing anti-flying. Thus, you can't reasonably say you gain the benefits of both all in one breath, because if you're able to gain the benefits of Aspirant Step, you don't know if your attack hits yet, thus you don't know if you can really gain the benefits of Wing Clip which is reliant on the attack hitting.
That's why my words do a little song-and-dance run around there, because they're trying to accommodate the full scope of the attack/damage rolls process.
> Well, with Paladins they only get one CD per SR/LR...
DeleteCleric has the same wording as Paladins, I was mainly referencing Cleric, though.
> I might go for points after all
I was also going to cite Mercer's Gunslinger Fighter, but I peeked before I wrote it and noticed there's something like a single ability, maybe two, that let you spend more than one point of grit.
> Ack, that's a straight up error in editing
That happens to the best of us. I believe that happened in my Warlord homebrew a couple of times, and actually happened during the transcription of my compendium as well. I think it's unavoidable, sadly.
> Thus, you can't reasonably say you gain the benefits of both all in one breath...
Perhaps, "you gain the benefit of your Aspirant Step immediately before attack and the benefit of your Wing Clip if the attack hits," then going on to describing the rest.
Something else, still, I'm remembering that there was no clause to prevent you from using your Wing Clip "twice" on the last ability. Perhaps something a lot of people might not notice (or even attempt to abuse), but good to be air-tight on intentions for homebrew.
ReplyDeleteI love how much this hearkens back to the final fantasy games I grew up. The 'moving parts' added have done a lot to enrich the flavour (and power) of the Dragoon.
I do have one thought about it - is Constitution the most appropriate saving throw?
Once we get into the territory of adult dragons (or any suitably threatening oversized flying suitcase) most of them are sporting a +12-14 to their Consitution Saving Throw. The funny thing about dragons is that while their strength is typically higher than their constitution, none of them have proficiency in strength saves, netting you bonuses in the order of +8-10. Making Wing Clip a strength save is going to make a pretty big difference to its utility, without making a mockery of the dragon.
Food for thought - but using a Con Save against a creature with maybe a 10-20% chance to fail it (that also likely has legendary resistances) seems like a bit too much of a hail mary, especially given Wing's Lack of broad utility (flying creatures only).
My instincts say either change the save or give wing clip some broader utility.
Regardless I love the Dragoon and will definitely find a chance to play one in the near future, great work!
>is Constitution the most appropriate saving throw?
DeleteThat's a point I didn't consider.
It was originally a toss-up between CON and STR for the save. I went with CON because I felt it was closer to representing the "bodily integrity" the ability was fighting against. STR usually represents more of a "contest of strength" which, while very close to what I wanted, I didn't feel was quite there.
HOWEVER, looking at what you're saying about dragons and their saves, STR is definitely the correct choice. The dragoon has to feel effective against dragons, after all.
>The dragoon has to feel effective against dragons, after all.
ReplyDeletePrecisely the sentiment and motivation for the post; I felt like there was just too little chance for it to function.
On the topic of saving throws: Avoidance; many Dragons employ Constitution saves for their breath weapons (at least 5; Brass, Copper, Green, Silver and White. Though I think in the case of Copper or Brass dragons the Breath Weapon does not deal damage. I wonder about expanding the definition to include saving throws 'against the ... breath weapons of dragons'.
(Quotation is taking the syntax directly from Dragon Scale Mail from the DMG Pg. 165).
There I think is room in the archetype for some kind of defensive provision against a Dragon's Frightful Presence, though it wouldn't suffer for not having it thematically or balance-wise. An idea for the syntax you could use might be:
When you make a saving throw against a damaging spell or effect, or a creature's breath weapon, you may use your reaction to spend one dragonslaying point and gain advantage on the roll. You must choose to do so before the roll. If you succeed on the saving throw and the effect would deal half damage on a success, you instead take no damage.
I specifically suggest creature here to broaden utility and avoid 'pidgeon-holing' the Dragoon in only being useful against dragons, though including 'damaging spells and effects' might do that plenty well.
Food for thought anyway! Cheers mate!
>many Dragons employ Constitution saves
DeleteYeah, that one's tricky.
I made it DEX saves because I wanted to give it general utility that could apply to any situation, and having apply directly to CON saves makes for some weird interactions (I use Avoidance to get out of this poison I'm drinking!). Adding a rider-on to allow it to be used for CON saves if they come in the form of a dragon's breath or similar seems logical.
>Frightful Presence defense
Urgh, that's one I'd have to find somewhere to slip in, but it seems important. I might tweak Strident Surge to allow a removal/immunity of fear with your Action Surge instead of just giving a free Aspirant Step, that seems like it'd be a good place to slot it in.
>Cheers mate!
Likewise, thanks for the help and support!
>(I use Avoidance to get out of this poison I'm drinking!)
DeleteYeah that would be a jarring deviation for the intent of the ability, not to mention would garner a look of utter disdain from a DM.
>Strident Surge changes
It wouldn't be terrible thing to have, but might just be something best left to indomitable thematically. Strident Surge is a really cool ability as it stand, and how often will you be in a situation where you both are under a fear effect AND want to action surge.
>Likewise, thanks for the help and support!
Happy to help, you're making some great archetypes here. I've played enough of your homebrew in my different groups that the standing rule on source material is 'Anything official, no UA or homebrew but anything from Walrock is fine.'